Sunday, October 28, 2007

Again another response to amway and quixtar

Why do I bother with you morons? None of you comprehend simple truth. Dateline interviewed IBO's that were in YOUR COMPANY not "internet critics". It's hilarious to assume that Amway wasn't investigated and shut down due to fraudulent business practices seeing as there's evidence that they were investigated and shut down by the FTC and also investigated by the FBI for fraud. If they weren't shut down why did the FTC announce their shutdown in 1999? Oh yes it must be that "internet critic conspiracy" that not only involves Dateline but the FTC and the FBI. OMG! the government is against you and your beliefs! How horrible but, let me be real for a second and say your site is a joke and its bias according to your site amway is great because the author has that opinion provide me a 3rd party source that proves the greatness of quixtar/amway. I guarantee you won't find one.

That's it I'm done debating the issue I am victorious and anybody with half a brain would research and realize that the government exposed the amway fraud.

PS: In response to your asking about me ever being an IBO. I was one for well over a year before realizing the truth.

PSS:Research you'll learn that Pyramid Schemes are deemed illegal in the United States and my friend Quixtar/Amway is a pyramid scheme in every definition of the term. Also,research the website and you'll find that in 1999 Amway was ordered by the FTC to cease and desist all business practices an order that was given to them back in 1979. Ha! I win


IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

I could ask the same question - why do I bother with you morons? Dateline interviewed *former IBOs* including at least one who is with a competitor.

Amway WAS NOT shutdown in 1999, that's absolutely absurd. Indeed in 1999 the FTC granted Amway's request to set aside some of the "cease and desist" orders from 1979. Those 1979 orders did not close down Amway - they got fined for price fixing for requiring distributors to sell at the same price, and they were required to publish income disclosure data.

How you interpret an FTC decision to set aside some 30 year old requirements into "announced their shutdown" is beyond me.

But your right, Pyramid schemes are illegal in the US and indeed most other countries. Which should give you a hint that a soon to be 50 yr old company is operating in nearly 80 countries is not an illegal pyramid? Indeed some disgruntled former IBOs filed a ridiculous claim saying just that in a court in California a few weeks back. The judge through it out.

Want some 3rd party endorsements? Try this

The government shut down Amway ... man, I thought I'd heard all the BS I could hear about this business, but folk just keep on makin' stuff up ....

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

that should of course read "the judge *threw* it out"

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

oh, and just to prove how ridiculous your claim is, try googling "Amway Arena"

Anonymous said...

All I have to say is a Youtube video is not a credible 3rd party endorsement rofl and any company who is investigated and fined by the FTC for unethical business practices isn't a company worth doing business with because it takes a lot to have the government up your ass that is as long as you're paying your taxes rofl

Anonymous said...

One more thing the "30 year old requirements" were never set aside they are still in place Quixtar/Amway still has to follow those guidelines rofl

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

*some* of the requirements were set aside, I didn't say all of them.

Amway got asked to change some business practices *30 years ago* dude.

As for "3rd party credibility" - how more credible can you get that recorded video of representatives of everything from major companies like Microsoft through to UN groups?

Backed off the "amway was shutdown" crap now, have you?

Anonymous said...

No just moved on to something more worthwhile than arguing with an imbecile who relies on youtube and his own personal site as evidence to discredit reputable agencies. I still stand by Amway being a joke and a fraud and 1999 wasn't 30 years ago heh

Anonymous said...

I am done arguing with you. No one with any kind of ethics would do business with a company that is notorious for ripping people off and making false claims.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

I am done arguing with you. No one with any kind of ethics would do business with a company that is notorious for ripping people off and making false claims.

Oh, and people who falsely claim a company was shutdown when it wasn't, they have good ethics?

Just to make things easier for you, here's a list of just some of the companies that directly do business with Amway/Quixtar in the United States

1-800 Contacts • • A La Zing • Ace Hardware • Activa Asset Management • Activa Travel • Complete Travel Agency Services • Ada Valley Frozen Foods • American Satellite & Entertainment • AmeriHost Suites • Avis • • Barnes & Noble • Bass Pro Shops • Blue Nile • Bombay Company, Inc. • Broadband Marketplace • Budget Rent A Car • • Chocoholic • Choice Hotels • Circuit City • Days Inn • Dell • Dick’s Sporting Goods • Discount Movies, Music & Games • • Driver's Elite • EarthLink • Earth's Edge • Endex Checks • eToys • Floors & More Direct • FranklinCovey • Front Door Foods • • Fuller Brush B2B Solutions • Fuller Brush Company • • • Hickory Farms • Howard Johnson • IBOCS • JC Whitney • • Knight's Inn • Kodak EasyShare Gallery • Landscape USA • Magazineline • Magellan's • Motherhood Maternity • Musical Instrument Superstore • NASCAR Store • Network Solutions • Northern Tool & Equipment • Office Depot • Omaha Steaks • Orvis • Overton's • PacSun • PaperDirect • • Paul Fredrick MenStyle • Personally Fit • PETCO • PetNetOutlet • Printshop • QuixNet • Ramada • SHOP.COM • Sony Music • Sports Authority • Super 8 Motel • Superior Coffee • • The Tire Place • Things Remembered • Travelodge • Universal Insurance Services • • Wingate Inn • Wireless MarketPlus • XS Gear

Now if we want to go internationally then you need to add even more ethically questionably organizations like UNICEF, World Vision, various US Embassies, Croatian Olympic Team, Skate Canada, Chinese Olympic Team, the City of Orlando, Orange County California, Prefontaine Classic, Stanford University etc etc etc

Oh, and folk like Dr.Phil, Asafa Powell, Sanya Richards, Karrie Webb, Gary Player, Sandra Bullock etc etc etc

You better start ringing all these companies, organizations and folk up, apparently all their professional, highly paid, PR and legal folk have missed something you didn't .....

Anonymous said...

Oh really, Then how come or none of these companies seem to mention Amway in any way shape or form on their sites? If you want to concern yourself with someone who doesn't have ethics contact the CEO of your company. No credible company has FTC Sanctions on them for 30 years. That's it I'm done arguing. You're going to refer to Amway and Youtube as 3rd party sources then you're an idiot and obviously ignore facts.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

US Embassy Croatia
Skate Canada

just to name a few.

No credible company has FTC sanctions on them for 30 years? What the heck are you talking about? *EVERY* company has *ALL* of the FTCs rulings applicable to them *ALL* of the time. They're not "sanctions".

Some of those other "non-credible" companies that have had dealings with the FTC include oh, Microsoft, Coca-Cola just to name a few.

You're clueless

Mikey said...

Is the IBOFIGHTBACK guy one of the quixtar executives?

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

no i'm not :-)

Sylvester said...

IBOfightback is not an executive for quixtar. He's a low level IBO who loves defending Amway.

Go to and look at the February 14th entry. His identity and other information is conveniently listed there.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

Do you hallucinate often Sylvester? Even ignoring all the stuff Larsen got wrong, he never did find out anything about "my level". Or did you deliberately just make that up? How honest of you.

Oh - did you see the news about Ronaldinho, one of the worlds greatest footballers, signing up to support Amway and Nutrilite?

Sylvester said...

Well, Mr IBOpunchingbag, why don't
you tell us your level.

1000 PV, crown ambassador?

There's no David Steadson listed among the diamonds in Europe.

Since by your own statement of being inactive for the last five years on your website, it's easy to deduce that you're a low level distributor.

You're also a hypocrite.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

I'm not a Diamond and have said as much many times. I'm somewhere between 1000PV and Crown Ambassador :-).

Who cares? Does my level make any difference as to the fact Amway *was not* shutdown in 1999? Does my level make any difference as to the fact Amway is not an illegal pyramid scheme? Does my level have any bearing on the fact that Amway has just been endorsed by one of the worlds biggest sports stars? Does my level have any bearing in the fact that Amway has been supported by Presidents, the UN, UNICEF, hundreds, perhaps thousands of companies, business leaders, governments around the world, etc etc etc.

I'm really really flattered you think I'm that important, but sorry, nope. The Facts don't depend on me. Or you

Oh - and where'd you get a list of folk who ever qualified Diamond in Europe? I'd love a copy to help with Amway Wiki

Sylvester said...

We don't really know if your statements are opinions or facts do we? You're a known liar and hypocrite.

Your level matters because you act like some well informed big shot when for all we know, you are just a broke loser IBO hanging onto the hope that "success is right around the corner". Or maybe you are "faking it until you are making it".

When I was an IBO, I was at a higher level than you. You see, I was at least a founders 3%.
See how easy it is to BS people?)

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

feel free to challenge any facts I bring to the table. More than happy to oblige with references so you can check them yourself.

And unless you were a Diamond, which I doubt, you have no idea if you were a higher level than me or not.

Not that the facts care. Even former Diamonds get them wrong. Was it Chris Brady who keeps claiming Amway US had a billion in sales back in 83 or so and compared it to the billion or so of Quixtar sales.

I pointed out his error on his blog - back then Amway reported estimated retail sales (ie as if every product was sold at RRP), it's approx 32% lower than the Quixtar sales data given - he never posted the message.

Men of integrity indeed.

Don't take my word for that fact, I'm a mere at least founders 3%. Go look it up - it's in plenty of public documents.

Sylvester said...

Your full of it. A founders 3% in meaningless and you know it. YOu say that unless I am a diamond, I could not be higher than you. Are you claiming you are and emerald?

That's pretty good since you state on your own website that you have been inactive.

"Oh - did you see the news about Ronaldinho, one of the worlds greatest footballers, signing up to support Amway and Nutrilite?"

See IBOfightback, that's your problem. Just because some footballer signed up to support Amway doesn't mean it's a good business opprtunity. Some baseball star promoting budweiser beer doesn't mean it's good for you to drink either.

Your twisted and sick logic is why
you can't be trusted.

"But your right, Pyramid schemes are illegal in the US and indeed most other countries. Which should give you a hint that a soon to be 50 yr old company is operating in nearly 80 countries is not an illegal pyramid?"

See, that's where you're off target again. The mafia is illegal but yet they still operate in various parts of the US. Crystal meth and drunk driving is illegal in the US, yet people do these things every day.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

"at least Founders 3%" isn't entirely meaningless. It tells you I'm an IBO and been one for at least a year.

Does the Mafia sign up sporting superstars and then have them promote their products on Television?

Indeed, does *any* illegal business sign up sporting superstars and then have them promote their products on television and in print around the world?

Anonymous said...

found this pretty interesting while doing basic business research...nothing too advanced that any mediocre joe wouldn't understand. seems someone doesn't understand basic business, distribution, supply/demand, supply chain management or the fact that even FTC has a page that lends credibility and just short of endorsement of Quixtar. can't wait to see what kind of brilliant brainwashing attempt you make to convince someone it doesn't exist.

Sylvester said...

Anonymous, the FTC does not come close to endorsing quixtar. They are a regulatory agency.

ibofightback, the signing of an athlete to endorse a product is a marketing ploy. It doesn't have anything to do with the benefits of being an IBO. That "athlete" serves the purpose of bringing name recognition to a product.

You know that right David? But you're just not honest.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

Nice dodge Sylvester. Of course I know that. Multi-million dollar athletes don't generally do public press conferences for illegal businesses though do they?

Remember, this thread is about this -

"Research you'll learn that Pyramid Schemes are deemed illegal in the United States and my friend Quixtar/Amway is a pyramid scheme in every definition of the term." and that Amway was "shut down due to fraudulent business practices seeing as there's evidence that they were investigated and shut down by the FTC and also investigated by the FBI for fraud."

All completely false. Well, not completely. Pyramid schemes are indeed illegal in the United States. The FTC did indeed investigate Amway, however they didn't shut it down - they determined it was *not* a pyramid scheme. No idea if it's ever been investigated by the FBI, if so nothing has ever come of it.

Now, Sylvester, do you believe Amway was shutdown by the FTC? Do you believe it's an illegal business?

Sylvester said...

"Nice dodge Sylvester. Of course I know that. Multi-million dollar athletes don't generally do public press conferences for illegal businesses though do they?"

Did I say Amway was illegal?

"Pyramid schemes are indeed illegal in the United States."

Yes, and in 1979, the FTC said Amway was not an illegal pyramid scheme. But certainly, there's PLENTY of evidence that Amway indeed does not enforce their retail sales rule - which is why they were not deemed an illegal pyramid. What would the FTC find if they were to investigate Amway again?

I do agree - Amway was not shut down in 1999 - they just changed their name to quixtar.

As for legal in other countries, the UK may be issuing a landmark decision very soon.

BTW, Greg Fredericks was not a former IBO when Dateline interviewed him. They wanted to interview Mr. Britt but he ran away with his tail between his legs.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

Great, so we're in agreement the blog post is wrong.

Though you're wrong on a few things still. Amway was found not to be a pyramid because you don't get paid for recruiting, which is a necessary component to being an illegal pyramid. Amway was also found not to be open to some of the abuses of pyramid schemes because of various rules, and I agree that on at least one of them, regarding non-IBO customers, they've been lax in enforcing the rules. On the other hand, the FTC has on a number of occasions explictly stated that the amount of "non-IBO" sales plays no part in determining whether something is or isn't an illegal pyramid, so it appears A/Qs poor enforcement of that particular rule would play little role in any new investigation. Don't forget, as recently as a few months ago a Federal Court through out a claim that Quixtar was an illegal pyramid based on most of it's sales being "internal".

As for Britt/Fredriks/Dateline etc, I have very little direct experience with that group. Materials I have read and been sent do however make me not a fan of their approach to things.

The UK is a whole different kettle of fish, it will be interesting to see the outcome.

Sylvester said...

In Amway, you may not get "paid" for recruiting, but the goal of many if not most IBOs is to recruit other IBO's because there is no other strategy that can get you to the higher recognized levels of achievement such as emerald.

I also believe that a thorough investigation of Amway could very well result in fines and the possibility of them being illegal, depending on what is investigated.

Overall, Amway is only good for the Amway owners and the pharoah's who sit on top of the pyramids.

The slave's are mostly losing money to support the lavish lifestyles of the pharoah's.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

Sure, and if you want to expand any business past a certain point you'll need to open additional "locations" and have additional "employees".

It's not necessary to make money though, which it is in an illegal pyramid.

Your "pharoahs at the top of the pyramid" comment just belies your ignorance of how the business works. Back in the FTC vs Amway case, one of the fellows interviewed was guy by the name of Walter Bass. He was at the "top" of the line that includes Bill Britt. Britt is a long way from the "top". But Britt makes a lot more Amway money that Walter Bass ever did. And you could join tomorrow, somewhere downline of Bill Britt, and make more money than he does. This isn't theory, it happens in reality.

Sylvester said...

Can you name people who made a lot of money without recruiting other IBO's? Can you name people who joined later and made more money than Bill Britt?

And doesn't Bill Britt make his fortune by selling seminars and not necessarily by selling Amway? That's what the Dateline show tried to expose.

Just because some Pharoah's can get higher on the pyramid doesn't mean it's not a pyramid.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

Well Bill Britt (joined 1970) joined later than Walter Bass (joined 1959) and made a LOT more money than Walter Bass. Just to name a few, guys like Max Schwartz (joined 1977), The Muller-Meerkatz (Joined 1976) and Foo How Kean (joined 1978) all joined later than Britt (though I think all are crossline to Britt) and all have bigger and more profitable businesses than Bill Britt. I believe they also all make much more money than their common upline (perhaps with exception of Foo How Kean) of Crown Ambassadors Dan & Bunny Williams.

You're not going to build a business of that size without recruiting for the same reason you're not going to build any business of that size without recruiting additional staff and/or opening additional outlets. That's business, nothing special about A/Q .

Sylvester said...

IBOfightback: Couple of points.

A few examples doesn;t necessarily prove your point.

Secondly, how do you know who made more money? Does Amway publish the earnings of these people or did they come out and tell you?

A pin level doesn't determine income. As I have read and believe, a poorly structured diamond could make less than a solid emerald correct?

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

You are correct, however a Founders Diamond is, virtually by definition, not poorly structured and will virtually alway earn more than a Founders Emerald. Bill Britt is Founders Crown Ambassador FAA40. The "founders" title and FAA points are measures of structure. All of the others quoted have more FAA points in their primary business (except Kean) and are also qualified as Diamonds and above in more countries than Britt. Kean I'm confident earns more than Britt because he is a Crown Ambassador 3 times - ie in 3 different countries, as well as Diamond and above in other countries. The others are also Diamonds or above in many other countries. Britt is I think also Diamond or EDC in India, but outside the US and India it's not that large. Jim Dornan, a US Founders Crown, also has more FAA points than Britt, is EDC or above in at least 3 other markets, and Diamond in at least half a dozen others. Heck there are at least 20 or 30 still registered IBOs "above" Britt in his part of the so-called pyramid, the only one likely to make more than him is Yager. Britt joined after all of those folk and makes more money than virtually all of them.

How this can and does happen is no secret, it's also part of the compensation plan. You need to read and understand it and then it will be clear. Indeed I was thinking last night ... sponsoring people actually *costs* us money, at least initially. For any given volume, a person who has generated the volume *without* sponsoring anyone will *always* earn more than a person who has generated the volume through sponsoring. *always* Doesn't matter if one is a Crown through sponsoring and one is a Platinum with no sponsoring, if they've created the same volume, the Platinum will make more money.

Sponsoring people is a decision to share the profits, and work, with other people - it creates *time*.

Anonymous said...

Great Quixtar debates here:

Anonymous said...

great, good to see you agree, just as i said. being a regulatory agency, it's short of endorsement, yet a link from to some good quixtar and BBB information lends great credibility to a company with a great reputation in the business community. i personally rely on FTC's info more than what an unknown element writes on his blog or myspace.

but again, if a person of lesser experience in conducting valid research were to conduct his research by way of google, they would of course find somebody's little blog. could apply 80/20 rules toward how that works. even my wife's 8th grade students who are still trying to find their way in life say "you'd be stupid to do research by typing something in google or myspace."

just spoke with the president of a bank and vp of a mortgage company. in comparison, compensation under quixtar's plan beats real estate compensation by far, revenue vs revenue. and he said, of all the business opportunities in the US today, there is nothing that comes close to the power of business with quixtar.

hope you're able to scratch through the surface of google, blogs, and myspace to see a glimpse of truth about this well respected company.

Anonymous said...

Maybe quixtar itself has a good reputation with the BBB, but I don't get that same information about the businesses that sell tapes and seminars such as WWDB, BWW, Network 21 etal.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

Sure you can, here's the BBB report on Network 21 from their home state of Georgia.

Zero complaints in last 3 years.

Anonymous said...

Get real, even if nobody filed complaints with the BBB, it doesn't mean that the general public has a favorable opinion about them.

Just look at Amway. Decent record with the BBB yet so many people run the other way when they hear that name. There are plenty of negative testimonials about network 21 and other folks who sell BSM's. To deny that is having you head in the sand.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

They're likely "running away" because of their experience with an IBO or group of IBOs. That experience has very little bearing on whether Amway is a good opportunity or not, just on who may or may be good people to do it with.

As for your last claim, you are incorrect. I've spent years tracking down as many published negative reports about N21 as I could find and there is extremely few. The great majority of online reports are second hand eg something like "got approached by a guy with N21. Looked good but thought I'd research, glad I found your site blah blah blah"

Given the size of the organization there are remarkable few complaints. Indeed, easily more than 90%, probably 95%, of "complaints" on the internet refer to folk who had experience with just one Amway line of sponsorship and some if it's offshoots. They are downline of just one of at least 12 original Amway legs. The other 11 legs and legs upline and crossline in the same leg generate almost no complaints at all - so much so that most people have never heard of them.

I for example read an article not that long ago which said something along the lines of "Britt and Yager are Amways only two Crown Ambassadors and biggest in the world" ... when at the time the reality is that there were more than 50 Crown Ambassadors, including more than a dozen others in North America alone.

Anonymous said...

YOu must nite I didn't say reports or formal complaints about network 21 and BWW. I said testimonials and there are many negative ones about all the LOS's.

If they selll seminars and tapes, then these LOS's are mostly blood sucking leaches that do more harm than good to most people.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

You must note I didn't say anything about formal complaints either. I've read every report on amquix, quixtarblog, mlmsurvivors, untold story etc etc etc. Pretty much anything about amway/quixtar on the 'net - I've read it.

And the facts remain as I've stated above.

Anonymous said...

You're read "every" report?

Surely you exaggerate.

Did you see this one?

And this one?

And this one?

Anonymous said...

And if I might add, if folks heard or saw rubbish from an LOS at a meeting or seminar, it coule mean that thousands and thousands were subjected to misleading information or crap.

In this type of business, I would guess that there are few complaints because people just walk away and quit once they discover the scam.

That may not be ibofightback's take on things but I believe that is the reality.

Anonymous said...

my chiropractors go to seminars and buy continuing education, as do the majority of my peers in various professional roles in business management or self employment. my previous employer sent me to seminars, classes, and paid thousands upon thousands per person towards personal, professional, and leadership development. in fact, most professional seminars out there cost $1000 to $5000 for 2 or 3 days. books and manuals can cost up to $5000 a pop. i understand it usually costs $100 to $200 for a 2-3 day conference put on by the groups affiliated with quixtar. the professional development books are all about the same ($8 to $30), whether from borders, b&n, or anywhere else.
at the mention of the name amway, my friend gets customers who are familiar with the high quality and value of products only available from them. i'll take them and their strong r&d and supply chain management any day over the low price low quality monster stores. at the end of the day you pay the cost for quality and get your money's worth.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

Anon 17:25, yes of course I read them. Did you? Or did you read what I wrote? In the first case, what's the complaint? Someone was invited to a meeting run and hosted by Network 21, not Amway, and they complain they were told they were being invited to a N21 meeting, not an Amway meeting! Duh!

Admittedly whoever the IBO was didn't handle it well, but this is the WORST you could find?

As for the second one, this is a classic example of what I'm talking about. There is no complaint there! It's a guy with NO experience with N21 raving on about how horrible it is! Read the damn thing ... it's full of emails of people telling him he's got it wrong, and even proving a lot of what he says is wrong.

Then there's the 3rd example, which is proof of why not to trust Amquix. Yes, N21 was sued for unauthorised copying of a book. It was settled out of court. Do you know why? Because Les Giblin's nephew and webmaster, Brian Zama, apologised for causing the misunderstanding that lead to the problem. You can read is affidavit on AmwayWiki in the N21 article.

That's all you could come up with? From a 20 year old company operating in 30 or 40 countries and having worked with millions of people?

That's it? C'mon, try harder, even I have "worse" stories than that.

Anonymous said...

IBOfightback, there isn't enough space to post all the negative testimonies about Network 21, BWW and other LOS. Apparently, you are not from the US, but I can assure you that there is much abuse here.

You obviously don't understand the reality of what happens here in the US. And what's more, you apprently don't make that distinction in your posts. You just try to downplay the occurence of abuse.

Sure, LOS's all have positive testimonies too, but the positive testimonies come from people who refuse to discuss their levels or business structure, despite having anonymous identities.

Yet, many negative testimonials are given by people who freely share their experiences. Why is that? Why do supporters hide and refuse to share any information about their business? Because they are lying about actually profiting in Amway?

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

Do you happen to actually read what I write? I've made zero defence of any other LOA apart from N21. I've made no claims about there being no problems. What I've pointed out is that virtually all the internet complaints, in fact even most amway-related lawsuits, come from just one group and it's offshoots. An intelligent person might suspect this meant the problem was with this group and not Amway per se.

Incidentally, complaints related to that group and it's offshoot appear to have died off quite dramatically in the last few years as well, so it seems they've made changes.

Anonymous said...

I disagree. I have seen a lot of testimonials decrying shady network 21 tactics as well. Several other LOS's appear to be more abusive, but they all tend to push tools very hard.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

So show me the testimonials. First hand ones, not crap like the ratbag guy who has had NO experience with N21.

I'm sure you'll find some problems, heck I've done the wrong thing at times and annoyed some people. But given the size of N21 (largest Amway support organization in the world) there are very very few complaints.

Anonymous said...

Just google network 21 negative testimonials.

Anonymous said...

At the time of the Blakey report, other “Amway families” included: the Childers (team of six Diamonds); the Stewarts; the Gooch family; the Bryans (Down East); the Wilsons (WOW); the Puryears (World Wide Dreambuilders); the Hays (International Connection); the Matz family ( International Diamond Association); the Dornans (Network 21); the Strehlis (Creative Life Styles); and the INA (International Networking Association), run by a group of seven families.

Anonymous said...

Network 21 looks as guilty as the ret.

Anonymous said...

You can sum Amway up in two little words… "AMWAY SUCKS". I am trying to get a refund for the Network 21 "TOOLS", and am getting a bit of a runaround. The excuse I am getting is that the Shrink wrap in no longer on the cassetts and books. My upline direct distributor is an RCMP (Federal Police) officer, something like your FBI or CIA. Hope he doesn't put a warrent out for my arrest! haha. Will see what they come back with as an excuse to not take their crap back! Will let you know if I have to end up suing them!

Anonymous said...

Guys be very careful of Amway and Network 21 (particularly network 21). When someone asked me to join i went and then i googled Amway and Network 21 when i got back. Google it yourselves and read the horror stories and court cases in the USA. There's hundreds of websites and thousands of stories to read."

Anonymous said...

"I was approached by a company called Network 21 to become a business partner and sell Amway products. I felt extremely uncomfortable during the presentation and got a nasty reply when I rejected the offer. What is the deal with this company?"

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

ROFLMAO! All you're doing is *proving* my point!

You've got the UK court case - which you conveniently neglect to mention the DTI dropped against N21!!

You've got Blakey saying nothing about N21 except that it's part of Amway.

Then you've got a guy with pretty much ZERO experience with n21 giving a warning because of what he read. Second hand - exactly the type of thing I "warned" against, cause folk read Amway stuff and apply it to all of amway instead of whatever part it involved.

And someone who felt "uncomfortable" in a meeting. Poor dear.

The only apparently "legitimate" complaint you've come up with is someone complaining an IBO wouldn't give him a refund for a tape. I couldn't find the comment on the link you gave, if I could I would have pointed the guy in the right direction for *getting* a refund, if he hasn't already succeeded.

20 years and millons of folk around the world and the best you got is that?

Keep trying.

Anonymous said...

I haven't exactly seen any glowing reports about network 21.

Come to think about it, heard about some of the unscrupulous things you've done.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

yeah, and I believe everything I read on the internet too.

I guess since folk feel they have to make up stories about me that it means I'm getting to them.


Anonymous said...

Just as I thought, you're full of crap.

I googled network 21 and found all kinds of negative stuff.

It's not that hard.

And you being a washed up inactive IBO doesn't produce a ringing endorsement either.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

Bull. What you might have found was lots of people with little or no experience with N21 talking about N21 and just assuming it operated the same way as whatever other experience they had or read about.

A few more reading comprehension lessons and you might be able to understand that.

Anonymous said...

Well mr. IBOFightback, you want to post any good testimonies? Ir do none exist?

What I "might" have found was new people who didn't know much.

But I "might" have found people who really do know that amway and teh tape sellers are scam artists just like yourself.

So you admit your a washed up inactive IBO?

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

I'm not sure what a "washed up" IBOs is, but I also happen to be no longer inactive.

Was it you who provided the link to the ratbags N21 article? Read the letters he got in response and you'll find quite a few testimonials.

Check out the list and videos on the N21 amwaywiki article for more.

And while you're at it, watch the "respected people, respect amway" video on youtube.

Anonymous said...

Everytime I do a search on network 21, I find a lot of negative stories about deceit, focus on selling tools.

That makes perfect sense to me that network 21 would be no different than any other tape selling group.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

Please, share some of these *first hand* stories about N21 and deceit with tools.

Anonymous said...

Why don't you share some rosy ones? I already posted some of the negative ones.

Anonymous said...

Free Voice…Better beware, I was approached by this team Network twenty-one here in Canada. They are trying to sign IBO's for Quixtar. I want to make sure that anyone who is thinking of signing up with them are aware of the cost involved…

First off the start up cost to come in as a pipeline builder is 662.73 then there will be a cost for going to a convention plus marketing supplies and motivational tapes, books and such.

A pipeline builder is one who has the position of signing up or coning people to buy into they're rip-off concept. I was told that even if I don't find anyone to come into the business they would place someone in my downline for me and I would make money anyways under there free ride klaus. WOW I guess I could pay, come in and then do nothing but make money.

Does this sound to good to be true? You tell me! After I was told this BS I started looking around the web for scams under the Quixtar name. I ran across the site below please refer to it before you even consider signing up for Quixtar/Amway or any other Team that carries any mention of Quixtar.

Here is a site that gives all the down low of the Quixtar business it was even featured on Dateline NBC where you can see the 21 minute video. I hope this helps everyone make a more informed decision Thanks for you time! God Bless

Edmonton, Alberta

Anonymous said...

The MLM survivor yahoo group is easy enough to find if you know how to use a search engine. I'm loathe to hand out the url as it is a survivor group and will not tolerate people who think that the sun shines out of assorted upline diamonds. For the record, I was with IDA for about 2.5 years in a southern Australian state. When I approached people about Amway, a frequently asked question was "is it Network 21?". In spite of protests that
we were not involved in Network 21, it was a good enough reason for people not to join. Network 21 in my state has a nasty reputation for driving its people very hard, allowing people to try anything (and everything) to get to a certain level before teaching them how to build the business properly, outright lying about the company behind N21 (quote "Is it Amway?" reply "no it's Network 21!") and finally, severe overedification of the upline to the point that they are regarded as saints!


IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

funnily enough Darren, my brother was with IDA and was told the same thing about N21. Having been involved briefly with IDA and later N21 I found the exact opposite was true. In my experience N21 was far more professional, far more honest, and had far less "deification" than IDA.

Of course, individual LOSs within the groups may have operated differently, particularly 15-20 years ago when N21 was starting and it was a diverse group from different backgrounds and experiences within Amway. Today the "culture" and approach is far more uniform.

I've been right through mlmsurvivor and there is very little in the way of critical reports about N21, indeed there are more in support than critical.

Outsider said...

LMAO! I only see critical reports about N21 here. $600 bucks to sign up? Scam!

IBOfightback, you are smoking pot?

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

what on earth are you talking about?

Anonymous said...

"First off the start up cost to come in as a pipeline builder is 662.73 then there will be a cost for going to a convention plus marketing supplies and motivational tapes, books and such"

Yep, your network 21 charges $662 to start up. Real ethical.

ibofightback, you sure your not using drugs when you post here?

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

Sorry, but that post is complete under bull****. I don't if it was an idiot doing the post or an idiot that approached him, or both.

Either way it's not even remotely true.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

oh, but I would credit it as a "complaint", even if it is based on false information.

Anonymous said...

Call it what you want. You can't prove it's not true.

Maybe you "might" just find a network 21 group who does exactly what was described in that post.

Why would someone just telling their story have a reason to make up something like that?

The truth hurts I know.

Buck up ibofightback.

Anonymous said...

You can't prove that the statement is false. Go ahead and try

Anonymous said...

July 7, 2007 3:26 PM
Ann Crystal said...
I donno about the functioning of anyother systems. I feel that all these motivational organization functions in the same way as that of BWW. i.e channeling a "Tool Business" and making it as the main business and Amway crap being the side business.

I think N21 works in the same way too. Do you think that you guys are different and feels that people in your organization "voluntarily" buys the high priced CDS and tapes when they get it cheaper at eBay?


IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

1. Neither Amway nor N21 has been banned in the UK. There is an ongoing court case against Amway (the one against N21 was dropped), but I full expect the outcome to be a positive one for Amway.

The "tool business" is N21's only business. It supports Amway IBOs. They too can potentially earn an income through BSM effectively via the same mechanisms as any other business, buy cheaper in bulk, sell at a markup. Or sell services such as being a seminar speaker. I can't speak for BWW, but N21 emeralds and above generally earn a lot less from this income stream than from Amway.

I don't quite understand your ebay question. You would appear to be suggesting that anyone who buys a book from barnes & noble is somehow being "made" to do so, since they probably (or eventually) could have bought it cheaper off ebay.

I also have no idea what "submission" has to do with anything? I've read reports of it's usage as a concept with some groups, but (a) can't recall ever having heard it from anyone associated with n21 and (b) no idea what the heck it has to do with the UK court case?

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

Can't prove it's false? Oh good grief. Can you prove it's true?

I actually forwarded that complaint to Network 21, they've submitted a reply to the site and sent me a copy -


I want to say on behalf of our organization that we find the actions you described not only inappropriate but also in violation of Quixtar's and Network TwentyOne's own rules for introducing IBOs to the Quixtar Business Opportunity.

There is not nor has neve been any requirement to purchase training/support materials and/or seminar tickets as a precondition to signing up as a Quixtar IBO.

Although I realize that over two years has lapsed since your post (we are a US company and only now came upon your post) I would be very interested in trying to determine how this unfortunate incident occurred, who was responsible and then take the appropriate action to protect against future incidents. Should you or others have details about someone who may have represented Network TwentyOne inappropriately, please contact me at the email address below so we may investigate.

Again, on behalf of Network TwentyOne I apologize for the treatment you received and will endeavor to address this and any other inappropriate actions as we are informed.

I assume it will eventually show up on the website.

From current n21 "starting point" materials for Canada -

Option 1
Register as an IBO, access the Products and Education, and
begin building your income producing business.

Option 2
Register as an IBO and access the Products.
Quixtar - Access to Business
• - Access to products
• $155.45 Registration*
• Includes Products, Publications and Business Insurance
• Complete the Registration Application - Access to Education
• $249.00 Network 21 Builder’s Package*
• Over $735 value; Tools and info to help you get started
• website access, WES ticket, DVDs and Books

You'll notice the *maximum* cost there is $404.45 and it includes seminar tickets, marketing materials, etc etc. The first option given has zero money going to N21.

Anonymous said...

Nobody said that Network 21 was responsible, but some IBO who was in Network 21 may indeed have tried to rip off a prospect.

It's the same as amway. Amway the corporation doesn't tell lies and tall tales to get people sponsored, but IBO's do and they end up giving the corporation a bad name.

But if you think that Network 21 doesn't have some idiotic IBO's who do stupid things, then you are either blind or you were born yesterday.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

and where did I say that? What I've said is that there are extremely few complaints related to N21 on the 'net, or elsewhere for that matter. Given its size (it's likely the largest Amway-related organisation in the world) and the nature of the business, with independent IBOs free to be idiots, this is quite remarkable. As I pointed out before, virtually all of the complaints on the 'net appear to originate from the same LOS and it's offshoots. Other organizations appear to generate so few problems that most people aren't even aware they exist.

Unfortunately people tend to
generalize what they read to the entire world of Amway. Even within that LOS, the number of new "complaints" seems to have dwindled dramatically in the last few years. It appears they no longer act in ways that cause some people problems either. Nevertheless, stories from 2 decades ago are still doing the rounds.

Anonymous said...

How come when you do a search for network 21 comments, all kinds of negative stories come up?

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

Because it's associated with Amway, and others associated with Amway *have* generated lots of complaints.

To give just one example, the "original" anti-amway website was Amway:The Untold Story. If you searched for "Jim Dornan", the founder of N21, then that site would be returned. A check of the site finds Jim Dornan was not mentioned once anywhere on the site. Why'd it come up? Cause the site owner put his name in the site "tags".

I state again, there are very very few actual complaints against N21 on the 'net.

Anonymous said...

Your entitled to your uninformed opinion, but I know network 21 is just like the others who sell tapes and books.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

Mmmhmmm .... my uninformed opinion based on 10 years experience working with Network 21 in multiple countries around the world. My uninformed opinion based on running two of the biggest Amway related websites on the internet. My uninformed opinion based on 10 years of researching and documenting the Amway business both online and offline, the good, the bad, and the downright ugly.

Yup, I'm entitled to my uninformed opinion, as are you.

I suspect I'm even more entitled to an informed one.

Ex IBO said...

Big deal. You run a mostly opinionated blog, you have accomplished what in the Amway and Network 21 arena? I know, it's a big secret - like your identity right?

It looks like your just an obsessed kingpin wannabe who is hoping that you can keep pretending until you finally succeed.

Your just like the others who hang around too long chasing a dream that will never materialize.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

actually, my identity is no secret, Larsen showed his class by publishing my name, address, phone number, a photo (including my infant son), satellite photos of where I live etc etc.

Classy that.

As it happens I've accomplished quite a bit with Amway, but so what? Are you claiming only folk who've accomplished anything with Amway have any credibility to comment on it? Seems like you're saying 99.9% of the "critics" have no credibility .....

Anonymous said...

Haha, I saw your identity on Larsen's website. But hey, what goes around comes around right mate? You did a number on some others as well. Payback is a beotch ain't it?

You accomplished quite a bit in Amway. Great, are you a nicer person? Normally a business success is measured by profit.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

Contrary to more lies spread by Amway critics I've never "outed" anyone. I know the names (and thus pretty much else you want to know) of many of the Amway critics on the internet and I've never revealed them. The only thing I revealed, which is prbably what you were referring to, was that Steve/JoeCool18 was lying in a post *he* made about his visits to brothels and prostitute-filled facebook profile. I'd had the info for a while, I didn't post that either until he did a post about it and lied about it. If he didn't want to talk about it, he shouldn't have raised the topic. He did, so now we all know the guy is a liar.

Anonymous said...

Avoiding the issue. Typical of you. What exactly did you accomplish in Amway? It certainly
didn't make you a nicer person.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

Avoinding the question? I've already told you it's an irrelevant relevant question, and I asked you a question - "Are you claiming only folk who've accomplished anything with Amway have any credibility to comment on it?" - which you didn't answer. Instead you went for ad hominem attacks and spread some lies about me.

As far as "making me a nicer person", as a matter fact, working with Amway definitely did make me a nicer person. Unfortunately a some of years of dealing with anti-Amway idiots on the internet has certainly damaged that advance. Getting in the muck with muckrackers has an unfortunate tendency to get you dirty.

Anonymous said...

Your achievements or levels could be relevent. In your case, you have been active for a long time and accomplished what? If you haven't done much, then why do you promote the business as a viable opportunity? What is your motivation for running a website promoting a business where just about everyone loses money?

If working with amay made you a nicer person, it dooesn't show.

Dealing with pro amway muckrackers can make you dirty also.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

(1) I accomplished profitability within 3 or 4 months of joining, and a decent income within 12 months. I know it works as advertised from personal experience. I've had friends I've known since they started (or before) go on to significantly higher levels.
(2) It's a myth that "most people" lose money. It's impossible for that to happen when "most people" don't spend any money.
(3) Who ever said I'd been "active" a long time? Since you seem to know so much about me, then you also know that, for reasons that have nothing to do with the Amway business, I haven't been actively building it for many years. Or are you under the idiotic misconception that you make money and succeed simply by signing an application?

Anonymous said...

You know it works? Great. I knowit works also - for a few select people. The majority of the group makes little or nothing.

Most people don't spend any money?
Your making false statements again. Registering is not free. And why do people register and do nothing? Because the opportunity is a bait and trick. The hucksters like yourself who shows the plan make it sound like a shortcut to wealth and early retirement. You prey on the naive and desperate. It makes me sick.

So you're been around, maybe active or not. The evidence clearly shows that inactivity quickly leads to backsliding in this business, unless your the only one whose IBO's don't quit.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

Let me rephrase - most people don't spend any money *after joining*. Most people don't even order product after joining. Most people certainly don't go to seminars or have any other business expenses

Now, if you consider the registration fee "losing money", then simply ask for your money back.

We "pray on the naive and desperate"? Uhuh. That's why we actively go out of way to teach folk to show the business to people who have better jobs than they do, better incomes than they do, bigger social circles than they do - you know, the naive and desperate.

Now maybe you tried to build an Amway business by "preying on the naive and desperate" and that could explain why you're now on the internet whinging about it. If instead you'd marketed the products and business to smart, entrepreneurial people and folk who wanted to buy high quality products, then maybe you'd have a business like my original Amway business (I have more the one), a business that I haven't touched in 8 years (heck, haven't even been in the same country), yet every single month there's PV flowing.

Anonymous said...

Most people don't buy or spend anything after joining. Why is that? Because hucksters like yourself make the business look easy.

Yep, many presenters of amway prey on the naive and desperate. That's why college kids and people with low incomes are targeted. Many end up worse off than if they didn't join. You people make me sick.

Why would I have to try Amway to knowit's a scam? I had family members who got sucked in, spent thousands on BS tapes and meetings and crappy products. Seems like common sense to avoid a scam.

You people are humorous, especially the morons trying to tell me that sipping a gulp of perfect water cures ills, makes you stronger and more alert.

You're bizness is BS, a lot of your products are BS too.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

Hucksters like myself huh? You know nothing about how I run the business, and even when you do - I just told you I don't target college students and people with low income - you just ignore it and continue with your own fantasies.

You challenge me claiming I've never achieved anything in Amway, yet now admit you've never even worked with Amway!

You claim the business is BS, when your comments so far have not been about the business itself, but rather how individuals choose to run *their* businesses. I happen to think, and was taught this myself, that the *last* people you want to be "targeting" is the low income and desperate.

I also happen to agree with you on the "perfect water" by the way, but I don't market that and I wouldn't market that. The corp itself has also told IBOs who are marketing it to stop with the BS.

As for the other "BS products", you're free to have your opinion. Others are free to have theirs. What do others say?

ConsumerLabs Consumer Survey - Nutrilite has the most satisfied customers of any brand.

Euromonitor - Artistry is a "prestige" brand and one of the top 5 best selling in that category.

Reader's Digest - Nutrilite, multiple award winner "most trusted brand" surveys

Reader's Digest - eSpring, multiple award winner "most trusted brand" surveys

Consumer Reports - SA8 scores 99 out of 100, 13% better than the next best.

World Foundation of Health, Heart and Mind - eSpring, "product of the year"

That's just a selection, but sure, you're free to have your opinion too. Me, I think most of the products are great.

Anonymous said...

Maybe you aren't one of those who are overly misleading about amway, but regardless, you promote a business where most make nothing or lose money.

I don't have to be involved in amway to know enough about it to understand the pyramidal nature of the business. You draw out the plan and you have a few guys earning small returns while the majority lose out. Throw in the tapes and books and some are losing their shirts.

There's plenty of evidence out that that college kids are recruited, and people who "dream" about earning $4000 a month.

There may be "some" good products in amway, but overall, I could get a cartload of similar or comparable products and Walgreen's or some local stores at a much cheaper price.

Amway is not a viable way to earn money for nearly all who get involved. Add in the shysters who profit from the meetings and it gets worse for the gullible who sign up.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

Do you believe the gym to be a scam? Most people who join the gym never get the "dream body" they wanted when they joined the gym.

Do you believe American Football is a scam? Most people who start to play football never get to play in the NFL.

Do you believe High School is a scam? In 17 of america's 50th largest cities, less than half of students graduate

Your comment about "the pyramidal nature of the business" just proves you don't understand the business. There is nothing in the plan that requires *anybody* to "lose out". There is no reason at all that everyone who joins can't be profitable. Just like there's no reason at all that everyone who goes to the gym can't lose weight.

Now, you and I could both run corner stores. You could run yours as a scam, skimming product out of the boxes, giving less change than you should, telling people the apples are magic or whatever.

I could run mine 100% honestly and above board.

Both running corner stores, one is a scammer, one is not. The fact yours is scamming people has nothing to do with the fact your running a corner store. The fact I'm not scamming people has nothing do with the fact I'm running a corner store.

If you want to run an Amway business dishonestly and unprofessionally, it's hard to stop you. Or you could run it honestly and professionally.

Either way, whether your scamming people or not has little to do with the fact your promoting Amway products and the Amway business.

Finally, the Amway business *is* Artistry, Nutrilite, eSpring. It accounts for 80-90% of total revenues. You can't find comparable products to Nutrilite anywhere else. You can't find comparable products to eSpring anywhere else. You can find comparable products to Artistry, but you can't find it at better prices.

You certainly can't find them at Walgreen's for better prices.

Anonymous said...

See ibofightback, your making silly analogies. What does a gym have to do with quixtar? The gym doesn't promise you a dream body, nor do they sell you and endless supply of tapes and seminars to learn to bodybuild.

The NFL doesn't make any promises either, but sinec you brought it up, the NFL produces a lot more income and wealth than quixtar. There are more NFL players living well than quixtar diamonds.

Why is high school a scam? Some people/kids are forced to attend, thus drop out when they have a chance. Are you saying yuo force people tp join amway? Then your comparison fits.

Why not compare Amway to a legitimate business opportunity like a Taco Bell where well over 95% of the owners make money. In contrast, quixtar businesses lose money more than 95% of the time.

Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and imagine that you run a legitimate amway business, but 85% of amway business owners run scams designed to bilk their associates. Overall, the business still stinks even if you run your business properly. Don't you understand that? New prospects don't usually know how to determine a legit operation from one that's not. That's the danger of getting involved with amway.
Most people are better off working a job or even getting a second job. Don't even get me started on the crooks who push the expensive meetings regardless of whether an IBO makes money or not.

And maybe I can't get artistry stuff at Walgreens but I can find a comparable product, and likely at a far cheaper price than quixtar.

No sir, amway is not a good opportunity for most people to get involved in. There are plenty of better ways to make an extra buck.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

Dude - Amway and Quixtar don't promise you anything either. You appear to have a totally warped view of what this business is about.

As for your Taco Bell analogy, I am 110% certain that if you had to invest as much money into A/Q to get started as you did into Taco Bell - then the number of folk making money would be a lot higher too.

Indeed, I'm 110% certain if you had to pay that much to join a gym, then the number of folk who joined a gym and got their dream body would *also* be a lot higher.

Now, let's go with your assumptions - 85% of Amway business owners run scams. Where did you get the figure from? Just made it up? You know, several years ago I gace a challenge to A/Q critics who made similar claims. I listed every known Crown Ambassador - then the highest level of achievement in the business, and challenged them to find all the "scam" stuff these folk were doing. You know something? At that time the great majority of them wouldn't even show up on a google search. All but 2 or three of them (and I think there was 40 or 50 in the list) had *zero* people saying anything negative on the 'net about them or the way they run their businesses. Zero. Zip. Zada. There's been something like 4 or 5000 IBOs qualify at Diamond and above. We've so far managed to identify about 10% on Amway Wiki. Go and see how many of those 400 or so you can find people complaining about. Go try and find complaints about the 4000 or so.

Then come back to me and tell me the basis for your "85%" figure.

The BBB receives virtually no complaints about the way IBOs run their businesses. The FTC recently looked into MLMs and found consumer organizations around america received hardly any complaints about legitimate MLMs, including Amway/Quixtar. Indeed, they decided there was such little to be concerned about they've decided to exclude MLMs from their proposed new "business opportunity rule".

You've had a second hand experience with one small, tiny part of the Amway world, not even a first hand experience(!), and here you are making broad generalized pronouncements about the business on the internet!

Now, a challenge for you regarding the products. According to an independent evaluation (by Euromonitor), Artistry is competing with Lancôme, Estée Lauder, Clinique and Chanel. That's the comparable products, not according to me, but according to a major international company that specialises in determining these things. Please go down to your local Walgreens and check the prices on those brands and compare with Artistry.

Then come back to me and backup your claim you can get comparable products "at a far cheaper price".

Anonymous said...

Obviously, the 85% figure was just hypothetical, but your listing of crown ambassadors is just as hokey.

For every crown ambassador, there are huge organizations below them.
Just look at the big meetings in stadiums and arenas. Thus is you have just one crown guys giving bad advice, then you may have thousands upon thousands of distributors downline doing unethical or stupid things.

As for illegal, the mafia is illegal, so is crack cocaine, but guess what? Both still exist in the US, and I bet in your country too (Australia right?)

Regardless of how muc effort an IBO puts forth, if the majority of them make nothing, it's not a good idea for most people to join. Same with the gym. If most people do nothing, they as well they should not join the gym. Same for amway.

Here's one price comparison for you. Satinique shampoo $9.50 for 10 ounces. Suave at Walmart for 12ounces is $1.99.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

I asked for an Artistry price comparison, not Satinique, and I gave you some independently judged competitor names so it's a reasonably fair comparison.

Instead you dodged the challenge and picked any old shampoo. Does Suave have Ceramide Infusion System or anything similar? Nope. Not comparable. Satinique is a salon class brand - which means you should be comparing to the best brands at your local hairdresser. But that's why I gave you the independent, professionally judged competitors, so we didn't need to get in to some pissing match about whether one product is as good as another.

But you dodged.

As for the Crown Ambassadors - yes of course they have huge downline organisations - that's the whole point. When you look at all the complaints on the internet, when you look at all the lawsuits, well over 90-95% of them are from just a couple of those Crown Ambassadors and their downline.

Ask yourself this - Why are there almost no complaints or lawsuits regarding all the other Crown Ambassadors and their huge downline organizations? Why do the same names keep coming up? Is it Amway? Or is it the way these folk have run their Amway businesses? And if all the rest (the majority by far remember!) don't generate these complaints/lawsuits - do you think perhaps it's possible they run their Amway businesses differently?

Anonymous said...

Let me clarify, I don't believe amway itself is guilty of egregious violations. However, some of the major organisations run by crown ambassadors are unethical and teach bad business practices. These bad business practices may engulf thousands and maybe hundreds of thousand of people.

Since new distributors don't know any better, when they are recruited, they don't know whose up and up and whose not.

You talk about complaints. Hardly anyone will file complaints as they are registered by John Doe enterprises, usually a friend or cousin. The people who did register a complaint with Amway itself said they saw no corrective measures taken and did not pursue it further.

Price comparisons are not worth the trouble because you can think amway stuff is pure gold and worth any price while I can opine that it's crap and not worth a dime.
I'll call this one a spade.

However, in a business where most people amount to nothing, I can only conclude that most people should not get involved. And for the unmotivated, they should not join a gym as well.

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

You know, I agree with most of that post.

Regarding your last point, it's a strength and weakness of the business model - anyone can join.

They decide.

The thing is, if after trying it out you find it's not for you, you can get all your money back. (Try that with the gym!)

What can be fairer than that?

Anonymous said...

Ok, lets' discuss the last point.

My "friend" John, who runs John Doe Enterprises signs me up. I try to play the game and do a few things. I realize that the business is not all it was cracked up to be and I fade away.

How often do people like "John Doe" actually follow up with people like that to try and get a refund, assuming that a refund is allowable within corporation rules?

IBOFightback - Fighting the Amway Myths said...

While that does happen, my guess is that it doesn't happen often, and from a reputation perspective it would be better if it did.

However ... reputation aside, why should John Doe chase you up? It's your business, not John Doe's. You're responsible for it. If it succeeds, it'll be because of you. If you want to close your business, then that's your decision. If you want a refund or to return products, then it's your responsibility.

As per your previous post, if you want to be babysat to that extent then you shouldn't be starting your own business in the first place.

Joecool said...

It's John Doe's responsibility if he recruited me, said "trust me" and you will succeed. And then if he doesn't deliver what he's promising, then he's got "some" responsibility to me as a downline.

If not, I am likely to just drop out, and when amway is brought up again, I will recant my less than satisfactory experience.

Whereas if a caring upline realized it wasn't for me or wasn't the right timing and got me a refund, my experience might be different and my fuure reaction to hearing the name amway might be different.

Joecool said...

Hey ibofightback - you post on every blog related to amway? I just happened to come across this obscure one by chance.

Anonymous said...

JoeCool makes a good point. I remember when I was recruited, the guy who invited me just said trust me and don't question me and you will succeed.

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and I invite you to do the same. It`s all about how to choose a proper companion utilizes your money in a right way - that`s it!.
I take now up to 2G every day, and what I started with was a funny sum of 500 bucks!
It`s easy to get involved , just click this link
and lucky you`re! Let`s take our chance together to get rid of nastiness of the life

Anonymous said...

Hi !.
might , probably curious to know how one can manage to receive high yields .
There is no initial capital needed You may begin to get income with as small sum of money as 20-100 dollars.

AimTrust is what you thought of all the time
The firm incorporates an offshore structure with advanced asset management technologies in production and delivery of pipes for oil and gas.

It is based in Panama with affiliates everywhere: In USA, Canada, Cyprus.
Do you want to become an affluent person?
That`s your choice That`s what you really need!

I`m happy and lucky, I began to get income with the help of this company,
and I invite you to do the same. It`s all about how to choose a proper partner utilizes your money in a right way - that`s the AimTrust!.
I take now up to 2G every day, and what I started with was a funny sum of 500 bucks!
It`s easy to join , just click this link
and go! Let`s take this option together to feel the smell of real money

Anonymous said...

Hello !.
might , probably very interested to know how one can manage to receive high yields .
There is no initial capital needed You may begin earning with as small sum of money as 20-100 dollars.

AimTrust is what you need
The firm incorporates an offshore structure with advanced asset management technologies in production and delivery of pipes for oil and gas.

Its head office is in Panama with structures around the world.
Do you want to become an affluent person?
That`s your choice That`s what you really need!

I feel good, I began to take up income with the help of this company,
and I invite you to do the same. If it gets down to select a correct companion who uses your funds in a right way - that`s AimTrust!.
I earn US$2,000 per day, and what I started with was a funny sum of 500 bucks!
It`s easy to get involved , just click this link
and go! Let`s take our chance together to become rich

Anonymous said...

Hi there!
I would like to burn a theme at this forum. There is such a nicey, called HYIP, or High Yield Investment Program. It reminds of ponzy-like structure, but in rare cases one may happen to meet a company that really pays up to 2% daily not on invested money, but from real profits.

For several years , I make money with the help of these programs.
I don't have problems with money now, but there are heights that must be conquered . I make 2G daily, and my first investment was 500 dollars only.
Right now, I managed to catch a guaranteed variant to make a sharp rise . Turn to my web site to get additional info.

[url=] Online investment blog[/url]

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